Curse

catharsis · Apr 18, 2007, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I don't suppose we could stop with the ridiculous straw-man arguments that go "OMG ANET Y U REALIZE NOW AFTER TWO YRS LOLOLOL!".

Two years ago, Soul Reaping had exactly zero skills linked to it, which meant that every point in SR was a point not being spent on an attribute that helped them do anything directly.

Two years ago, this was an entirely different game. It's entirely plausible that Soul Reaping has higher relative power in Nightfall-era GW than it did in Prophecies GW. Online games change. If you don't want to deal with change, there's always chess.

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Soul Reaping has a problem.

Pre-nerf: It was too strong

Post-nerf: Now its just clunky and doesnt address the issues of the nerf.

Well if you agree that Post-nerf solution is bad, how about instead of trying to troll defending it you try... you know... contributing to the conversation?

The Ernada · Apr 18, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Funny how he's nitpicking at unrelated topics and fighting with everyone and yet he's calling everyone a troll...

Anyway, ignoring that SR was indeed overpowered won't help "fix" anything (As Lyra already said) And using hyperbole also won't help anything (i.e. saying SR is now "useless)

I agree that the timer solution is clunky but SR still works. The proble is that SR was a flawed mechanic to begin with. A mechanic that the player can't control is very hard to balance. But with a little refining it can be done. Ensign's solution is still one of the best ones.

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

Funny how he's nitpicking at unrelated topics and fighting with everyone and yet he's calling everyone a troll...

Anyway, ignoring that SR was indeed overpowered won't help "fix" anything (As Lyra already said) And using hyperbole also won't help anything (i.e. saying SR is now "useless)

I agree that the timer solution is clunky but SR still works. The proble is that SR was a flawed mechanic to begin with. A mechanic that the player can't control is very hard to balance. But with a little refining it can be done. Ensign's solution is still one of the best ones.

Nitpicking at unrelated topics? You mean like how my post was responded to- nitpicking of unrelated things? Bravo! Oh and, I don't know about you, but I'm not fighting with anybody- people say ignorant things, I tell them they are wrong. Not much of a fight.

I hope that "ignoring" part wasn't directed at me, because if you read my post, I clearly said that builds such as MM were overpowered

And yes, ensign's solution is the best one and Anet should just use it already. Haven't seen anything wrong with it.

lyra_song · Apr 18, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Well if you agree that Post-nerf solution is bad, how about instead of trying to troll defending it you try... you know... contributing to the conversation?

I am defending the fact that there is a problem.
A lot of people seem to think there never was a problem.
This is what i am against.

I do not like the nerf because it is pathetically WEAK. It is also not very intuitive and still easy to exploit.

I posted up my idea for fixing Soul Reaping on page 54 of the soul reaping thread.

I subsequently reposted it 2 times. No one read it except maybe Lord Mendes. I've contributed to the conversation MANY times only to be ignored.

Thomas.knbk · Apr 18, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

P.S. Please don't make a bunch of new pre-nerf spiritual pain type skills, or if you do, make them PvE only.

Ya dat.

I think it would be quite uhm... inelegant to give the mesmer a ton of buffs because unskilled players and PuG's can't appreciate its current strength, because that is basically what she says.

kev doppleganger · Apr 18, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

hmm bout time mesmers got a break in pve imo so good news

Macktar Wang · Apr 18, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

people say ignorant things, I tell them they are wrong. Not much of a fight.

Oh, the irony...

<insert Ensign's sig here>

UnforgivenIII · Apr 18, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

When I first started playing GW it was elementalist or nothing for me, and from that i learned energy management. Then, I made a necromancer and fell in love with the class. So..I guess I'm just wondering, am I the only Necro out there that didn't care when this nerf hit? 90% of my builds only had SR at 3 or lower anyways because i knew how to energy manage from my ele days. And they all still functioned fine, might not have been able to spam AS many skills at times, but usually those times were towards the end of a battle anyways when they weren't even needed. It was still all there when the going was tough and my curses or hexes or whathaveyou HAD to be there...Just adjust is what i say. There is no need to shelve your necros, they are still usable, and then When ANet finally "fixes" this, rejoice if you must

Series · Apr 18, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macktar Wang

Oh, the irony...

<insert Ensign's sig here>

Haha yeah, I better stop arguing before I get pulled down there

sindex · Apr 18, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Someone should come up with the title: The Mesmer Fix

I was about to complain about the whole “A-net listens to its community about skill changes,” but I though “nah.” After all half listening to us accounts for something.

Anyways it good to know that the mesmer PvE stuff is still in the works. Please, please, and more please, do not make the PvE skills for the mesmer only adept in getting them through a grinding method via a Title. I can understand getting them up to a certain point in the game, but the grind I could really do without.

I have to ask though are you going to make a tutorial for these new skills or enhancements? Actually would like a NPC that just gives the instructions and that’s it.

Edit: Oh yeah before I forget, Zinger was right about the Signet of Lost Souls which easily replaces what A-net did to Soul Reaping. Please use it. It really does help.

Carinae · Apr 18, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

I think the entire discussion of SR being too powerful in PvE is a non-issue and a farce. Too powerful by what standard? Unbalanced by what stardard?

Too powerful in a co-operative, non-competitive environment versus monsters?

Too powerful that no-one played other classes?

Too powerful that they made PvE even easier?

What specifically is gained in PvE by the nerf?

Please stop chanting "Balance". There is NO BALANCE in PvE, it's a PvP-Only concept. There simply is no reason at all to nerf a class in PvE except when it is interfering with other classes. NONE.

You DEFINATELY don't nerf a class to make the overall game harder!!

EDIT: I'm not talking about skill-rebalances. I'm talking about major Mechanic changes.

boko · Apr 18, 2007, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

The existing change does successfully place an upper limit on energy from Soul Reaping, but the designers are concerned that the five second rule is inelegant, being a little random in its effects when triggering Soul Reaping through quick kills. They are going to continue to investigate a better way to accomplish the same energy-related "reality check" while being a bit more lenient in how it is applied. If this is done, some of the recent energy cost changes to skills may be reverted.

I dun't think you can ask for more...TBH
The timer was too drastic... Anet realised that and is listening and doing more test to actually come up with a more lenient solution... This is the best news you can hope for... I dun't see why many people are still complaining

noocoo · Apr 18, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by catharsis

I don't suppose we could stop with the ridiculous straw-man arguments that go "OMG ANET Y U REALIZE NOW AFTER TWO YRS LOLOLOL!".

It's not a ridiculous straw-man argument.

It's a truth.

And I never complained about the soul reaping nerf. What I complained was that Anet was always doing the right things late.

For example, party search is a wonderful function for pve players, but why did Anet release it for 3 months after Nightfall release when almost players already completed the main mission line in Nightfall?

Another example, Ritualist and Assassin were both underpowered before, and Anet did not do anything. Before Nightfall just out, finally, there was a skill balance which buffed them a lot. Wasn't it too late? Apparently, these could be done earlier.

explodemyheart · Apr 18, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by noocoo

It's not a ridiculous straw-man argument.

It's a truth.

And I never complained about the soul reaping nerf. What I complained was that Anet was always doing the right things late.

For example, party search is a wonderful function for pve players, but why did Anet release it for 3 months after Nightfall release when almost players already completed the main mission line in Nightfall?

Another example, Ritualist and Assassin was underpowered before, and Anet did not do anything to them until Nightfall out. Wasn't it too late? Apparently, these could be done earlier.

It is not the truth. Someone posted a link to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition and apparently it's worth repeating.

Tradition !=correct.

Tradition was slavery. People eventually decided that was a bad idea.
Tradition was not allowing women to vote. People eventually decided that was a bad idea.
Examples a bit extreme? Yeah, but it gets the point across. Just because a tradition is in place does not mean it is the correct way to be doing things. Arguing that because it was there for so long as a reason of why it should not be different now is false.
Arguing that things could have been done sooner is also a completely pointless argument in your favor.

Corinthian · Apr 18, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Nothing's going to change with mesmers. What stops an e/me bringing an useful mesmer spell or two with them if they are boosted in the next expansion? Why would anyone need a primary mesmer in PvE? For casting faster???

ead7 · Apr 18, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

I believe that most people believe AOE damage is what lacks in the mesmer class, but I think the real problem is that secondary mesmers replace regular mesmers

. Most of the skills for mesmers don't have to have high attributes to be good. In fact i think the secondary mesmer class in over used. You can see it in the Elementalist class, the monk class, the necromancer class, the ranger (Farmer and Spiker) class, warrior (Farmer) etc. The special attribute for mesmers (Fast Casting) is useless in pve. Fast casting is mostly used to interupt, and interupting skills like Power Block and Cry of Frustration won't be needed because not only is pve filled with melee, but npc's have an advantage when casting. If you use heroes they have a super ability to interupt peoples skills. As with enemy npc's they are completely unpredictable.

Soul reaping.... Once again we talk about this update and the major components when dealing with soul reaping. The issue with soul reaping is more and more people are using soul reaping for monking and for other skills instead of necromancer skills for which it was intended. This is probably the most difficult issue that has ever come across Gw. The side of PvE and the side of PvP. Both need soul reaping and updating one of them dramtically changes the other. I think the best way to solve this is to hit the nail right on the head. This means that you will have to reduce the amount of energy necromancers get from minions. But you will have to reduce it even below half. The solution for this in pve is to add some high energy skills that let you gain energy if one of your minions die. Or even a better idea is to add a skill that gives you energy whenever your minion hits with an attack. Thus it will cancel out minion factories in pvp and still make minion masters important in pve.

boko · Apr 18, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Nothing's going to change with mesmers. What stops an e/me bringing an useful mesmer spell or two with them if they are boosted in the next expansion? Why would anyone need a primary mesmer in PvE? For casting faster???

Maybe they are going to make the new skills attributed to fast casting...lol!

Am perplex and curious about how they are going to make mesmer popular in PvE too ...haha

viper11025 · Apr 18, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

I think we need a energy cap to fix this and limit the max energy a person gets from the dead at a time.

DrD · Apr 18, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

Copied post from Daisuko...I think it is a very good post and something that dev's may not be taking into consideration with the SR nerf, thought I'd post it here in-case you miss it on the other thread:

That's exactly the point of being a Necromancer in the first place, for Endurance over an extended period of time... Mesmers are meant to shut down whatever they're designed to, they can do both, melee and casters. Also, there are MANY energy stealing mesmer skills, equip a few and you're good to go. Elementalist ALSO have good energy managment, as well as an energy ceiling higher than any other class can attain... Mesmers can string off more spells due to shortaned casting time, and elementalists can use more high-costing spells.. neither of them being death-dependant. Necromancers only get their energy if something does in fact die, if nothing's dying, they don't get energy, and their energy pool dwindles away. In PvE Deaths are usually not hard to attain, save for in high-level areas... and due to AI changes, mostly you must spike entire groups to death all at once, therefore you would only gain the energy from 1 death instead of all... Minion bombing, for one, (though I haven't tried since the update) would likely be highly ineffective, since the entire idea is to make multiple minions quickly, and then cause them all to explode at once, causing massive spike damage. However, now you will only gain enough energy from doing so to cast maybe 1 or 2 minion spells to attempt to re-build your army of bombs before you're defenseless.

Furthermore, while Necrmancers are the only class who can "bank" their energy on mob deaths, that relies on a steady supply of deaths... There are many, MANY skills to gain energy. EVERY class has energy managment of some sort, And skills aside, Barrage, Triple chop/Cyclone axe or Hundred Blades, and all Scythe attacks can gain energy fairly quickly without any skills at all, merely using a zealous weapon. There are also Balthazar's spirit, and the mantras wich gain energy on hit... Heck, Greater conflagration combined with Storm chaser is the fastest method of energy gain I can think of. While Necromancers are the only ones relying on deaths for energy, they're really the only ones that NEED to rely on deaths for energy. For example...

A ranger decides to be R/Mo, puts on essance bond and Balthazar's spirit, with a Zealous Bow.

There will be no energy regeneration at all. Someone else in the party brings Greater Conflagration....

The ranger wears Pyrebound armor.

Suddenly, you have a ranger who (with high enough expertise or targets) Is GAINING energy upon each barrage, and if anyone attacks said ranger, they gain 6 energy per attack as all attacks would be elemental. It would only take a very paltry amount of hits on that ranger to boost it's energy to maximum, and with expertise further reducing the cost of skills, Near-infinite energy is attained.

Or perhaps any elementalist who runs E/Me Stone striker/Mantra of earth?

What about warrior's endurance or Zealous Vow? Both of those give warriors or dervish extremely high energy gain.

And as long as there are no skills to prevent critical hits, assassins can often gain 4 or 5 energy per critical hit, and have several skills available to ensure critical hits...

So while Necromancers may very well be the only one counting on deaths, they're really the only one that needs to, since their primary attribute does just that, and all other classes have other, easier to attain methods of gaining energy.

And lastly, (how many times have I said this so far?) Factions does not have ANY energy managment aside from soul reaping based in necromancer-only skills. Offering of blood and Consume corpse are Prophecies, and Signet of lost souls and Reaper's mark are both Nightfall. What does that leave those who only own factions? I'll tell you what, Nothing. Nothing but Soul reaping wich is far less reliable than it once was.

Great post, agreed.